Have to toss in my two cents worth on the topic of the day, that being the dirt that's being heaped on Jossy Mansur of late. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. I have no way of knowing for sure if any of the stuff we're reading is actually true or if it's just more rumor-mongering, this time by Jossy's enemies and/or competitors in the local media. Still, he certainly has brought it on himself. He'll say anything if it gets him invited back tomorrow night. And his accuracy rate for the 'information' he has scooped the rest of the world on is a big goose-egg. The next thing he gets right will be the first! And, if it turns out that the stuff being reported about Jossy is true....

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Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

If you think about it, none of the people, whether Aruban or other, have any "real" information - its simply put out there, and then proven to be inaccurate. I'm patiently waiting for the day when the real facts come out from ALE... (the only people with the real facts) and when they do, all these showboaters will look like idiots and go on to the next story.... The biggest showboater is Jossy Masur, and he has no other place to go... Maybe Fox will hire him!!

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They're the ones that use Mark Furhman.

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Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

Just goes to show that integrity means zilch!

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The Mansur's are a big family on the island all own big businesses there, I'am quit close with alot of them, I used to hold Jossy quit high up there, but now after I see him on TV trying to add more fuel to the fire with no facts what so ever, I now dont even consider him as an Aruban.

His sister and another brother were in involved in The La Cabana scandal, I know my parents has bonds with them to build that place, he took the money and ran!!. Its not La Cabana actually its the building on the other side, the one not on the beach. Its a still ongoing saga.

2 of his nephews were also involved in a high profile scandal they were suspects of money laundering and were extradicted to the US after a few years they got released since there was no evidence against them, they made a deal I guess with the US that they would not sue them for all the time served. At this point many of the family members pulled all intrest they had in the US out. They dont have that much power as they used to anymore, but still the wealth is still sizable.

In Aruba there are many of these families now, some are openly known to be wealthy and some others you would not even suspect of them, those are the ones usually which are loaded. This also really shows the humility of the Aruban people again, not showing off what they have but show what you can do and many do help others in need.

Just now live on the TV. It seems that MSNBC in some way gained access to the prison where Joran is being held and filmed him and asked him questions. This is against all his right to privacy. His lawyer immediately went to court and demanded that none of the images are allowed to be showed on television. The verdict of the court was that if MSNBC shows any of the images of sounds that they taped today, they will be fined 1 million florins for each time they do that.

He ruled that the rights to privacy and the human rights of Joran are more important then the right to freedom of speech. MSNBC gained access to the KIA without permission of the Minister of Justice as they should have gotten and as such have committed a crime.

From the images on tv just now (live) it is obvious that the people of Aruba are fed up with the American Media. They demanded that the lawyer only give a declaration in papiamento or Dutch so that the american media could not understand it.

From what I understood as last is that MSNBC indeed will not air any of the images.

Good God Nancy "disGrace" just does not know when to shut her pie hole.

ratings $$ ratings $$ bottom line for all of these tv networks that are
nothing more than tabloids revolting and speaking of revolting, she had jossy's voice on again tonight and he actually sounded incredibly stupid.

now there is a "new invention" device, like a devining rod, that can find teeth and human bones. ya sure.

i am so glad that the arubans do not get FOX or the other tabloid news on their tvs.

Did you see that on Aruban TV or American TV? The same story got covered by Nancy Disgrace tonight and she used it pretty much as an excuse to blast MSNBC for "their" lack of journalistic integrity. (Of course, she also interviewed Jossy, who knew nothing, and she blasted everything Aruba on the principle that this could happen at all.)

When I see it on Nancy, I'm skeptical that it even happened at all. When I read Sandra posting about it, I tend to believe it.

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Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

Live on Aruban TV just now, channel 15 ATV.

Danki for your fast response. It does raise a question, how did they (MSNBC) pull this off?

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Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

Joran supposedly admitted that Natalee passed out and he then molested her. I don't know if it happened in the car or on the beach after they got out. That version certainly makes more sense than the one saying that she feel asleep on the beach, and it also suggests that she was given a date rape drug or alcohol in the car.

If the molestation occurred in the car, that suggests that the Kalpoe brothers are still lying and trying to cover-up for themselves or Joran. Personally, I don't believe a word that comes out of the Kalpoe brothers' mouths.

P.S. I was given a date rape drug when I was 19 and it only took about 5-10 minutes for it to take effect. Luckily, I am not much of a drinker and only drank a small among of my glass of gin before I knew something was wrong. I never completely lost consciousness and managed to crawl out of the house onto the front yard and get help.

Man... I go out of town for a few days and the S*&^ is flying again. I'm confused as usual. May be time for All things Natalee Part III

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Wahoowa

Make sure to tune in tommorrow for another episode of.....................


As my stomach turns........

later,
millertime

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ARUBA....One Happy Island

Later,
millertime

I heard that so called "molestation" and it came from Beth of course....I have yet to hear any substantive evidence from an official source. Beth is worse then Mansur.


I also doubt any need for a date rape drug.....sounds like she was partying all night, taking jello shots , laying on the bar etc....not exactly signs of noninterst....not to mention that she got in a car with 3 guys....and then told her friends at the bus station she wanted to stay with them....

We will all know soon what is fact and fiction.

Mansur tonight said the infamouts three girls are now only one...the other two aren't testifying...how convenient for his miserable scoops.

I am glad that Joran took MSNBC to court fast.....the Arubans are tired if the one sided railroading that Beth and American journalists want to have happen.

This is absolutely the most outrageous thing the media has done to date. NBC should be thrown off the island. Along with Fox, MSNBC and all the other media.

And the warden who allowed it will supposedly be suspended. He should be.
Just when you think this case can't get any weirder.

OK, enough of Jossy. Time to break out the jello shots.

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Amie
Stylish Crochet Patterns
See me on this t.v. show!
"I'm not an actress. I just play one on t.v."

Hmmm, well I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch just yet, friend.


So what did you think, Politics only lives in America?


The closer they get to the time limit of letting rich boy off the hook, the more scandalous his obviously well rewarded legal team will play this out for civil violations & lack of fair intent to their client.


Sad part is that all too often the media in their frenzy plays right into this trap, and then it's the victims and justice that suffers the most.


Simple epitomes of what lawyers have to offer a moral & just society these days; but alas, it's never really over till the Cute Chubby Lady Sings, now is it?

I see, so Beth has investigated this thing way beyond you & I, spent day after day working it, and yet you can honestly say that she knows less then any of us, or worse yet, that she's worse then Mansur?

Nothing personal, BT, but me thinks you're getting a little tipsy in the speculation dept, here.

None of us really knows much of anything at this point, for sure, but I'd be willing to wager that this Mom knows a lot more then any person here about what really happened to her daughter, one way or the other.

Funny thing is that this whole incident has really put a new light on Jorans personality: I just can't fathom him anymore as this naive kid who might be remorsed into something: It's quite obvious that Joran has been well schooled on what to say, and what Not, and I now have little doubt that he might ever confess to any crime he ever commited.

In fact, at this point, If I were an investigator who wanted him that bad, I'd be looking for evidence to convict him way beyond the scope of what his mouth or associations can manufacture.

Sandra I am getting sick of this MEDIA circus. Don't they have respect for one's law in that country?
At what is 1 mil.florins Sandra....its peanuts to the Media like MSNBC. How did they come in? Why did they let them in???? I am flabbergasted!!!!!!!

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Money isn't everything but it sure keeps you in touch with the kids.

Dear Ellen are you still living in the rumour world?

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Money isn't everything but it sure keeps you in touch with the kids.

Yes, blenchi, I agree.

But let's not let the greedy & sordid cause us to loose the focus here, which is who's responsible for Hurting & Killing Natalee.

Amen to that, Sister E.

But then again, doesn't it usually work like that, anymore?

All we really have to go by are humors and TV interviews of participants like Beth and the security guards. Beth and some others interviewed on TV seem to think Natalee was molested by Joran. Beth alone has said that many people have told her that. In a few months, the prosecutors will make a decision about what, if anything, they can prosecute Joran for. Only then will there be more than rumors to go by.

From now on, perhaps, we should only discuss real news events like people being arrested, people being charged with crimes, new evidence being found, etc.

Works for me, Ellen.

2 Hell with all the old could of, should of, and would of, but didn't, crap.

However, convincing everyone else to abide by those rules is going 2 B the real trick, but if U can do it, then more power to U, & I'm with U alll the way.

I have two questions
1) How did they gain acess?
2) Why doesnt the Aruban goverment throw the media out? (especialy now after showing such disrespect for Aruba and it's people, total arrogance on the medias part)

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Tom C
I GET IT !

Good questions, Tom, C.

Not that I have any real answers here, but I’m willing to take a simple minded poke at both your questions, so as 2 Q#1: I'd say, “ obviously with some one’s help, there in Aruba!

And, As 2 Q#2: Well now that’s the Million Dollar question, isn’t it, but then again, why didn’t the Aruban Government handle this whole thing the smart way 2 begin with?

Funny how this world’s never 2 short on so many Why’s & If’s, hey?

Maybe nobody hurt or killed her Pant....maybe she went for her last swim. We don't know what happened to her.

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Money isn't everything but it sure keeps you in touch with the kids.

Quote:

None of us really knows much of anything at this point, for sure, but I'd be willing to wager that this Mom knows a lot more then any person here about what really happened to her daughter, one way or the other.

Well I don't think so....cause she is angry she doesn't get any information for what's going on.

Quote:

Funny thing is that this whole incident has really put a new light on Jorans personality: I just can't fathom him anymore as this naive kid who might be remorsed into something: It's quite obvious that Joran has been well schooled on what to say, and what Not, and I now have little doubt that he might ever confess to any crime he ever commited.

Where did you get that new light from? I didn't hear anything what he had to say and what not. All rumours so far.

Quote:

In fact, at this point, If I were an investigator who wanted him that bad, I'd be looking for evidence to convict him way beyond the scope of what his mouth or associations can manufacture.

Luckily you are not an investigator. You could have locked up an innocent man.

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Money isn't everything but it sure keeps you in touch with the kids.

I don't think anyone on this thread suggested that Beth knows even less than any of us and I don't know if she's even worse than Mansur but, yeah, based on her overall track record, I'd say Beth has been a totally unreliable source of information. I understand she's desparate but she grasps onto anything that comes by hoping that this time she will get her answers. And then she goes public with it.

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Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

Excatly HUMORS ..........

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Money isn't everything but it sure keeps you in touch with the kids.

Don't want to seem like I'm nit-picking, Pant, but, exactly one post earlier, you called out for an end to "the could of, should of, would of." Isn't that exactly what you're doing here?

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Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

I see, so Beth has investigated this thing way beyond you & I, spent day after day working it, and yet you can honestly say that she knows less then any of us, or worse yet, that she's worse then Mansur?

Sorry, Pant

Her "investigation" ala joker private eyes, Mansur, egotistical dog posse handlers and a guy named Jug is tantamount to those old biased "investigations" of blacks not all that long ago. Her big "insight" into her daughter getting into "a cab" and Joran actually buying her daughter those ole evil "shots" (woe be us came on her trip back to Birmingham and detailed research into her notebooks

She has had a string of false allegations, accusations and false "leads."

Joran is no less or more naive than Natalee, who by all accounts was not what she has been made out to be by her mother. She was drunken, laying on the bar, got into a car with 3 guys and later turned down a chance to go with her classmates at the bus station, etc. The image of her bouncing jello shots off her navel at C and Cs is in sharp juxtaposition to "this nice 'lil bama debutante" that Beth has fashioned.

As for being "rich" , from all accounts, the money is on the Holloway side and they are getting all the freebies and attorneys and resources.

The Holloways just don't like fair play. Beth is obviously someone who has been used to getting her way, absent ole Dave excuuuusing himself from her tired act

I've said from the beginning that Joran and Natalee were very much alike and that is why Natalee was attracted to him and vice versa. Two peas in a pod.

They said last night that the Arubans near the courthouse after the hearing are tired of the American media and the way Joran had been treated in this case. many here are too.

You can call Beth's anger based blind accusations "investigation."

I call it ole fashiond "tar and feathering" justice that the Holloway/Twittys want. And she'll stomp her foot like an angry three year old on Fox when that does not happen.

I have four kids and all the time I thought they behaved very well. One is still at home...the benjamin.

Anyway a month ago we all went for dinner and I praised them for being model children..hahahahahahah ....did I hear some stories!!!!! Mama....you don't know what's like outside there. You are still living in the oldfashioned world of kids behaving. If we would have behaved like you thought us to we would be outcasts, wallflowers and nerds.
Anyway I am glad nothing happened hearing all those stories.

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Money isn't everything but it sure keeps you in touch with the kids.

charlierat,


Sorry about that. I went back and edited out the reference to Alabama. Off base and a cheap shot in anger at their antics, but misdirected and unfair. The Holloways are no more representative of Alabama than Nancy Grace is of what Americans think. And that old system was really about who had power and money, not geographically- driven.

Good post and right on.

Thanks, I appreciate that. And since the quote in my post no longer accurately reflects what you said in your prior post, I deleted it altogether.

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Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

Pant.....
Why didn't the gov't handle the case right in the first place? That was your question......

First off the gov't has very little to do with this case, its prosecutor's office and police and investigative offices that handle all crimes.
Secondly, admittedly they (the police) are inexperienced in solving murders, considering there have been I think 3 murders in the last 5 years, none of which were a true who done it.....I believe many that is why there "seems" to have been some mis-steps, but until this case plays out, we really are guessing that the case has been blown....!!! Caren Janssen (the prosecutor) might surprise us !

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Some people get lost in thought because it's unfamiliar territory.

OK, I'll chime in. I do believe that Beth has more knowledge of things that went on than any of us crime sleuths here, but I don't believe that means she knows what happened. What people have to understand is that Beth is playing the system. She knows exactly what's going to get her flashed across the cable news networks each and every night. And, by the way, none of us know whether anything she or anybody else states is true. There is no possible way for any of us to know what is and is not true. There's a group of people here that like to discredit things that Beth and others say as rumor and nonsense because they're flamboyant, but in the same breath can take a rumor about jello shots as the one and only spoken truth. C'mon, talk about fair play.

My problem is that Beth is constantly saying that she is getting no info. from the police, but then when asked a question, she says that she cannot answer it because of the investigation. So she complains that the police are not telling her anything, but it is OK for her to hold back info.

The other day on tv someone asked her where were the friends and chaparones when all of this started and she did not answer. She answers what she wants.

Her big complaint is that her daughter was not considered as abducted when she first went missing and that she would have been in the US. Well now we hear about Olivia N-J's boyfriend who is still considered as "missing" after months, and also the girl from Ohio was considered as "missing" for several days and now is considered as foul play. So, the Aruban police acted just like the American police when they did not suspect foul play right off the bat.

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Hound, I think your post is probably one of the best and most accurate posts on this thread. How many times is everyone going to play that woulda, shoulda game?? It's really getting old. If it were as easy to solve as some people think, there would have been a resolution by this time.

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In other news, NBC News has offered an explanation for how they got access to Joran in prison. They claim that they were invited to tour the prison so they could show what the prison conditions were like. In the process, they were taken into a ward and there was Joran. They claim that they asked him a couple of questions and he politely declined to answer.

Then Joran's attorneys filed a motion to supress any footage showing Joran, which the Judge granted and which NBC says they will honor.

Makes me think back to Nancy Disgrace last night acting all outraged by this 'stunt' by NBC. I'll bet she was secretly wishing CNN still had a crew on Aruba.

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Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

Luckily you are not an investigator. You could have locked up an innocent man. (This was too short to be posted as a quote)

But to answer:

Weren't 2 innocent men locked up for 9 days during the crucial period when any law enforcement person will tell you that the odds are when a person goes missing if they are not found within those first few days they will likely not be found alive? Beth Twitty has stated from the beginning that all she was on the island of Aruba for was to find her daughter and take her home.
She has also stated that if she had been able to find her daughter that she would have gone home with 48 hours upon arrival. None of us can imagine what frustration each additonal day with no results has added to her misery.
It seems that she has realized that her dream of taking her home alive will not happen but at least the poor woman needs to know what fate awaited that night when she made the miserable choice either drunk or drugged by her own hand or by someone else's to get into the car with 3 people that she thought were average teenagers just like her. The one that she was smitten with had told her that he was a Dutch exchange student and a guest of the Holiday Inn.

Just spoke to my family in Aruba, they said last night there was a demonstration infront of the parliament, this was against the whole media situation which MSNBC yesterday aired an footage that they obtained illegally of Joran inside the prison. Arubans are saying enough is enough now, finally something that had moved the people, usually they are very passive.

Jorans lawyer moved quickly and the judge granted him everytime that they air the footage $1 million has to be paid.

Dan Riehl got fed up and closed his blog (riehlworldview.com) as there was nothing new, just rehash and b.s. Maybe it's time to close this one and open a thread for general chat so those of us who've met here can continue to exchange tips about Aruba (rule #1: no Natalee chat!) and updates on our trips, future trips, etc.
Marriott Surf Club - 5-12 Nov 05 and 7-14 May 06

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Lynda (aka Weed)

Blenchi, I guess you are right ... "humor" or "rumor," what is the difference in this case as far as news reports go? It is getting hard to take the witnesses and TV reporters seriously. Everyone seems to just want their 15 seconds of fame and will say anything to get on TV.

Did you hear the latest development: Carlos 'n Charlie's hired that fired boat disc jockey to be the club's new disc jockey. It sounds like a publicity stunt to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anngie It seems that she [Beth] has realized that her dream of taking her home alive will not happen but at least the poor woman needs to know what fate awaited that night when she made the miserable choice either drunk or drugged by her own hand or by someone else's to get into the car with 3 people that she thought were average teenagers just like her. The one that she was [perhaps] smitten with had told her that he was a Dutch exchange student and a guest of the Holiday Inn.

Anngie, I agree 100% with you that Natalee was guilty of only being naive (or very intoxicated) as far as getting into that car goes. She was suppose to have been told by Joran that he was a Dutch exchange student and a guest at the Holiday Inn. Seen in that light her impaired decision to get into the car doesn't seem so crazy.

Ah yes, but she was "supposed" to have been told, etc.

Actually that's OLD news by now

Dan Riehle posted a new thread after all. Sign that the story is wearing out: no mention of Natalee in yesterday's edition of Aruba Today. Article on tourism on the front page includes praise of timeshare guests (pat yourselfs on the backs, folks): "It is these same timeshare guests who saved our economy post 9/11 and it is these same timeshare guests who stand by Aruba and its reputation in times of crisis defending the island's good name in the face of sensation seeking journalism."

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Lynda (aka Weed)

Yes, beth is angry, but who wouldn't be in her place? - I think she has learned more from talking to all the folks she has then the police have, or at least that's the impression I've gotten with all this coverage.

I was talking about my opinion of Joran, where as I was under the impression that he was such a naive kid, I now see a shrewd and disciplined man.

Yes, it probably is lucky I'm not the investigator, for Joran or any other suspects, but then again, I wouldn't have handled this thing with such kid gloves. - I have no doubt that if any of them are guilty or innocent, I would have known by now.

BTW: Joran is locked up, though albeit, probably not for too much longer.

True, but then again, maybe she was murdered.

Fact is that nobody knows the facts, and that's probably what makes it look too much like a very calculated conspiracy.

Ahh, I see that I've opened up a can of worms by defending Beth hey?


This whole thing has been Spun to the point where even I get dizzy trying to make any sense of anything.


It seems as if anyone who doesn't agree with the powers that be, gets castigated or cyber fried, as if they’re response automatically constitutes an attack against the good people of Aruba, which it does not.


There is Good & Bad everywhere, and I criticize the Authorities and Politicians were I live, when I feel they've screwed up. - However, that doesn't mean that I don't like or respect the folks here, or that I want to live somewhere else.


Not accusing you, personally Charlie, but I've really lost the need or enthusiasm for this whole subject, and I’m sorry I said anything to begin with.


Though I would love to see some justice, I'll be happy when this whole thing is put to bed, regardless of how it turns out, and we can all just go back to talking about the less serious & more fun aspects of Life.

Now In response to your question, Charlie:


Not really, it was more of a question in hindsight then anything.


I still believe the moment of opportunity was lost though I also think at this point it's useless for anyone to go back with any hope of fixing this thing, either way.