Elaine,


I agree that he is the defense attorney and that has to be factored in....just as those of the other side....doing their job.

I was commenting on his demeanor and conduct when he said it as well as the context-he did not bring it up and was replying to a question asked of him. There was no indication that he introduced it for shock value at all. I'm not defending these guys if they did it, but that attorney..on the very few times I have seen him...has been very professional in his conduct.

And as far as the predators comment, it may well turn out that these guys are indeed that...that is going to come out. My only comment is that 151 incident that Beth made a big deal about was a very weak basis on which to draw that conclusion. Its a big leap from buying shots to being predatorial, at least in my opinion.
Someone asked when they signed it-how would I know. But the FBI did interview the MB classmates in Birmingham ...I think that has come up severl times.

If they did not interview the classmates and get statements, that would really be a dereliction...since many saw her that night, while she was with Joran , at C and Cs. They'd be remiss not to talk to classmates.

So I'd assume the deposition (I guess they call those declarations in Aruba) was done in Birmingham. As I stated above, this is what the Deepok attorney said...that it was signed and by classmates.....he could be lying...but that is possible all the way around in this case. Time will tell ultimately-but there was no rebuttal from the Holloway side and they have typically retorted immediately anything they disagree with.

The truth....maybe ,.....will hopefully emerge.

Good to have you back, Your Majesty!

(I realize that there have been a buch of posts between this one and that one but this is the one I wanted to respond to.)

Survivors indeed, Arubans are. And adaptable. And it occurrs to me that, throughout this entire summer, Arubans have really maintained their dignity. The media attacks seem to be dying down and Aruba is emerging, not just unscathed, but looking really good!

We know there will be additional tests. September 4th kind of looms out there. But there's honestly not any scenario I can think of that would have even a short term negative impact at this point.

__________________
Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

I agree with Sherry 100%.
The Arubans that I met and spoke with last week all are tired, disgusted, frustrated and tired of the whole damn thing.
andrea

The average Aruban has less concern about Natalee; than, some one from a remote Indian village in Alaska.



These bulletin boards are where the only interest is shown.



Like Sherry, I have numerous Aruban friends, that I will not mention, that think this affair is sad; however, it has not effected Aruba as so many on these BB’s think it has. Life goes on the same as it did long before this started. There are no changes. The taxi drivers are still as crazy as ever.

One of the real anchors for people like me throughout this summer has been reading firsthand reports from people that have actually gone to Aruba this summer and have come back and reassured the rest of us that there is no crisis.

__________________
Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

Yes Charlie, I agree - I feel the same way!

__________________

If most of us are sick of hearing about it.. you can imagine that the Arubans MUST feel the way Andrea just described!

P.S. Welcome back Mod Squad Momma!

__________________
Wahoowa

I've always had a problem with the MB kids, and have felt right from the start that not one of them should have been allowed to leave that island without being questioned by Aruban Law Enforcement. They, too - had plenty of time to put a story together. Again, I don't give much credence to the defense attorneys statements.

As to Jug, Beth, Jossy, the reporters and the legal Aruban minds, everybody has an axe to grind so I take it with a grain of salt. Until statements come from ALE, the ONLY people who know what happened, we all only theorize.

All of a sudden the naysayers are jumping on the bandwagon about ALE and how "smart" they are to have made the moves they did. We Arubaholics knew it all the time... Although the start may have been questionable and perhaps for good reason, hopefully, they have put a puzzle together that most law enforcement agencies would never have been able to. What I admire most of all about ALE is that they wouldn't cave in under the intense pressure, scrutiny and maligning.... they went about business as usual - quietly, no leaks... I'm totally impressed!

__________________

you are exactly right elaine. the only people with no axe to grind is ALE. they have kept their silence and dignity. they go about their business and keep their mouths shut as they are supposed to do in order to preserve their cases.

as to the MB kids, never should they have left until questioned completely. this is proved by the changes in their stories. we hear about joran and the kalpoe lies. the MB kids are guilty of as much lying as are the 3 boys (men).

by the way, this doesn't mean i think that the boys are innocent. my opinion is that their guilt is as possible as their innocence and will be until we are allowed to learn the facts of the case. however, because i am aware of the lies told by the MB kids and beth, i am a skeptic about both sides.

Heheh.

No doubt. - I'm amazed at how proficiently you can swing them too.

Yeah, I just saw the Roller Coaster Car heading my way so I''ve got my belt well chinched for it...

Figures; no sooner I leave and all the Fun Stuff & Naughty Begins.

Couldn't agree with you more, Hoo.

Personally, I think this issue passed 'Stale,' or 'Dead & Stinking' (no sick puns intended), long ago.

JMO.

that many of you seem to feel, and this is only my perception, that your island's reputation is more important than a human life. As one who has had two neighbors' daughters murdered, I know first hand the anguish that a parent experiences at the loss of a child. Beth Holloway's persistence and aggressiveness in pursuing the truth about her daughter should be admired by everyone, yet some of you want to denegrate her. People, this lady lost a daughter. No island paradise is worth the loss of a child. I would hope that a little more compassion and understanding could be shown by some on this board and that you could truly try and put yourself in this poor family's position.

Have you read all the posts?

HELP - POLICE?! how to contact?! 1999 posts
natalee-opinions and speculations 1520 posts
natalee--facts and rumors 987 posts
All Things Natalee 1223 posts
This one has 1664 posts

Most everyone has read all of them. Please read them, you will see how this has transpired in almost 7,400 posts.

__________________

I should also say that I have had two co-workers murdered. One took three years to solve while another almost 6 (and I am doubtful that they got the right person on that one). The Best Man at our wedding was also killed/murdered in a MV accident, the other person was charged, hit him head on. We do have sympathy, please read the first thread in its entirety.

__________________

obviously calrep divi is right that you haven't read very much nor do you know anything about aruba since you haven't been there. we sympathized and still do with beth. however, she has started to use tactics that are disgusting to keep her daughter in the limelight. furthermore, after 3 months, this island owes her no more than to seek the truth. i know firsthand that she and her entourage (sp?) have called and actually demanded free meals, free rental cars, free hotels and free anything else during the last 3 months. she has gotten most of what she asks for. i want this case solved and so does everyone else. we want closure for the family, however, at what cost to everyone else involved including aruba itself? there is a limit to how long an entire island should suffer for what may or may not have happened to one person. there is no case like this in the history of missing persons that i know of. this should not be the first.

BRAVO! That's why you came back, so you could answer the question!

__________________

I personally would give a lot of latitude to someone who has lost their child and would never ever criticize this person for doing whatever is necessary to bring closure to this issue. I also admire this mother doing anything she can to keep this issue in the limelight; this is the only way a resolution will come forth. Personally, I could care less about the economy of the island of Aruba. I care deeply about the life of a child whether that child be American, Aruban, or any nationality. I'm so sorry that your little paradise has been disrupted, and I will leave you and your board members to whatever you do that floats your boat! Adios!

Cal we all do have a great deal of compasion/sympathy for the Holloway - Twittys what has ticked us off is the daily unkind words and accusations of improprieties of the Aruban goverment,le and the truely wonderful people of Aruba
If you care to read back a few thousand posts you will realise its the people getting slammed that we care about not the "Island Paradise" youd have to meet the people I think to truely understand where we are coming from.
Its the people that make this desert like island a paradise

__________________
Tom C
I GET IT !

obviously, you are unwilling to spend the time to read what has been posted and have made your decision based on nothing but your own opinion. i base mine on taking with the parent of one of the children involved, talking with americans who's opinions vary widely, and spending time with arubans who really do care but are tired of being represented badly because of the american media. i give beth plenty of latitude but i also am disgusted by anyone who spends their time lying. you have obviously listened to the media instead of reading factual reporting as we have had on this board from day one. you would see that this woman has not just twisted truth but had lied frequently. that is where i draw the line and stop caring about beth. that does not mean i don't care about natalee. we spent 2 months sympathizing with beth and the h/t families. the last few weeks we have all witnessed the blatant lies. sorry calrep, but the end doesn't justify the means. one life is valuable to all of us but destorying 100,000 lives because you don't like the truth is not the way to do it.

now, you are more than welcome to leave if you want.

Good and truthful posts, both of you.

Sherry, I am suprised to see they are continuing to ask for handouts after all this time. This should now stop (I hope) with the over $100,000 they have made from the recent silent auction. I wonder if she is back on the island. It seems like Dave mostly stays in Mississippi. Did you hear anything about them buying a house or renting a place? Depending on location, with the money made, they could easily do that. Also wonder what they are paying their two lawyers or is that free? One actually came out of retirement according to the lawyer's brother.

__________________

Oh heavens! Get over yourself...

__________________
Amie
Stylish Crochet Patterns
See me on this t.v. show!
"I'm not an actress. I just play one on t.v."

I am sorry to disagree, but it is much more likely than a 50-50 chance that the three suspects are responsible for Natalee's disappearance. Their behavior just reeks with guilt. The lies are not innocent lies, but lies designed to deflect guilt and cover-up something. Only guilty persons try to frame others like the security guards or make up alibis even before they are needed.

There is almost a 100% chance these men are responsible for Natalee's disappearance. The only things unknown are the details of the crime: Who did exactly what, how did Natalee die (by accident or by design) and what did they do with her body?

What you also need to understand is that the two murdered people I worked with were in the limelight monthly (newspapers) and still took years to solve.

Another one is Christa Worthington (Google it), a fashion writer who lived about 10-15 mins. from my house. High profile and someone just got arrested this year and she was murdered in 2002. Just because something is not on the news for 5 hours a night (like this case) doesn't mean people are not working on it. In all honesty, it is probably better to keep it out of the limelight so people will come forward and not be bombarded by the press.

__________________

i heard rumors about houses and renting but they were just that...rumors. i don't trust rumors and won't believe them until and if they become facts.

as to the handouts, yes that does continue. that i know as fact.

well ellen, i have to disagree with you. first, in the usa and in aruba, you are considered innocent until proven guilty. i am not ready to believe they are innocent for the obvious reasons that they have done 'something' even if at the least it was being guilty of being less than chivalrous. however, until i see evidence or facts, i won't judge anyone guilty.

Divi
Thankyou for the compliment
But Sherry is truely the master at responding to closed mind uninformed / misinformed knuckleheads I merely get ticked off and ramble I hope I make sense tho sometimes most of the time just frustrated and venting but I do GET IT!
HAIL TO THE QUEEN
Sherry glad your back safe and sound

__________________
Tom C
I GET IT !

golly tom, my ego needed that boost. i just want things to be (dare i say it) fair and balanced. i tend to be a devil's advocate and see both sides of every situation. i also don't like rumors and even more than that i hate lies. this entire natalee story has been filled with both on both sides along with a series of reporters and fame seekers creating more lies and rumors.

one more thing...when someone comes on to this board with no room to hear anything but their own side i get very frustrated. we can't learn if we don't open our minds.

Anytime Sherry my pleasure

__________________
Tom C
I GET IT !

When someone (usually someone new) characterizes the tone of many of the posters on this board as anti-Beth and Jug, many of the regulars accuse the poster of not having read all the posts.

Well, I HAVE read every post all along the way, from the first one by the Mountain Brook mother whose daughter was on the trip. I have not watched the majority of TV appearances of these two or others. And I have watched some of you (and I can name you, just based on your posts) really shift in your attitude toward Beth and Jug (not so with Dave, and you explain that as well).

You base this shift on their behavior, perceived as manipulative, with the goal of keeping the case in the media. You also note their failure to praise the Aruban people, as opposed to the Aruban authorities. You don't like that they have almost certainly received free and reduced benefits (how many I don't know--rumor!), or maybe that they have received these benefits without giving enough credit to the participating corporations and individuals. Some of you don't like the idea of the family shopping and visiting casinos and restaurants in the last three months.

But you also say they have lied many times. I am trying to recall specific instances of Beth and Jug LYING. I seem to recall that someone complained about their repeating rumors as facts, but I can't say which ones, based on your comments. Several of you just say, "They have lied so many times...." Well, could you be more specific? Make a list like Kevin is always doing (I like those lists, Kevin!) with what you think are lies and let's see what we really have and then you can refer all the questioners to that list (rather than a blanket referral to all the past threads) when they dare to challenge this thread's critical attitudes toward Beth and Jug.

I'm glad so many have gotten to know each other on this thread. I feel as if I know something about many of you from reading your comments over this time. Please don't make me the victim of a group attack! I tell my non-thread-reading friends about this thread, and they can't understand the objections to Beth and Jug. They say what many others say--that they can't imagine what they would do in the parents' situation, but it would be whatever it took. When I try to articulate the specific criticisms from this thread, I find myself at a loss. So a Kevin-list might be in order, if you think you have specifics for it. Don't hit me!

Therein lies the problem, queen MOTHER! These one time posters have no clue where we've been, where we're coming from, and why we're at where we're at!!

They don't come here to learn anything... but rather to spew the same garbage.

I don't believe there's a fairer, more balanced Aruba Board online than this one. We've disagreed with eachother respectfully... we've cried with Beth and her whole family... we've even critized ALE when we thought it was necessary.

I decided weeks ago that I'm no longer going to go one on one with these hit and run posters... it's a waste of time and energy.

And to calrep, our little island paradise HAS been disrupted... but fear not, she will come back stronger and greater then ever!!

__________________

macy, unfortunately there are several that i can't give you exact proof on because i keep promises not to reveal sources and yes, as moderator i do have sources. however, i will remind you of the first few posts on the very first thread since you say you have read them and i do believe you. if you recall, the kids said that she had talked to joran for a few days at the holiday inn...beth denied that even though she wasn't there to witness it. the kids said she left with joran and got into a car with him and the kalpoes...beth denied that saying natalee didn't know it was a personal car and thought it was a cab(that is her most absurd lie in my opinion)...the kids said beth was drinking as they all were...beth denied that saying that beth didn't drink until joran forced the 151 on her. please understand that i have at least a dozen other samples but unless i back them with sources i will not post them. i can't back them with sources because i will not offend the people who trusted me with information. i don't break promises.

I for 1 have voiced my displeasure over her attitude towards the Aruban people and people in general. This does not mean my heart and prayers dont go out to her it simply means I cant understand her attitude towards the very people trying to help I would like to think God forbid if I was in thier shoes Id be much more appreciative to the Arubans for thier kindness, generousity, etc

__________________
Tom C
I GET IT !

Finally the Aruba Task Force came up with a website that everybody can get more facts instead of speculations. go to www.arubatruth.com.

Macy... very articulate post. I like that you've asked questions and have an open mind as to why we think what we think.

Beth and Dave are in a situation that I hope I never find myself in. I know that if it were my child, I'd move mountains to find her. However, I'd be so thankful and so grateful for any help that anyone gave me that I'd kiss their feet. Beth and Jug demand... and malign. Nothing is ever enough, nothing is ever done the right way. How many missing children families have you ever seen being given this much love, care and financial help?

One night I happen to catch Jug on some program ... he couldn't wait to say thank you to US Air for all their financial help with the flights for the family and friends, and even named one woman in particular. In the next breath he couldn't wait to slam Delta for making not one concession. Who is he that he should be entitled to it?

Never once have I heard either Beth or Jug say a thank you to all the restuarants in Aruba that haven't charged them a penny... never a thank you to the hotels that haven't charged them a penny.

Dave Holloway and his wife have been nothing but gracious, and constantly praising whatever anyone does for them. No father should ever have to dig in a landfill to find his child's body... yet he's never once complained.

We all have opinions here... and as I said before, don't always agree. The one thing we do agree on is that there's not another country including the USA that would do as much and give as much to finding a child as Aruba has done...

__________________

Divi, I completely agree. Just because it's not in our faces doesn't mean that investigators are sitting in their behinds. I'm thankful for getting only the minor details if it means that they're working to solve the case and getting leads. I'm not sure why that's so difficult for some to grasp.

__________________
Amie
Stylish Crochet Patterns
See me on this t.v. show!
"I'm not an actress. I just play one on t.v."

Good site Nelson.... Nancy Grace is a total embarassment.

__________________

I, for one, am very upset about the lack of appreciation she shows to the people who are giving her free things. They talk nasty about Delta airlines, but then praised USAirways. She also mentioned one night that she got a rental car for a month but I am not sure if she mentioned the company name. So she has thanked 1-2 companies and of course many thanks to all the TE and the people who have gone down to Aruba to try to find her. I don't even think she thanked the gov't for having everyone take a half day to look for her. I would think it would be fairly easy to get someone from MB / Birmingham (which she praises all the time for their support) to get a website going for free, not just an e-mail address and thank certain establishments that have helped her. Texas Equusearch has them all on their website. She seems to be quick with negatives but not positives. I don't believe she has ever mentioned a restauarant or hotel in any of the newscasts. Now the family, I think, is getting it and praising the Arubans. That is what I want. She rarely says anythinng about what the Arubans are doing for her. I just want her to be fair to all parties. She was very willing to thank Courtney Cox for items donated and other stars, and also mention that the auction was by invitation only (who got invited anyway?) but what about the people who are giving daily? She takes airtime to apologize that the auction is invite only but no airtime to thank people / companies in Aruba. It appears she only thanks Americans and American companies. We have heard her complain that C&C will not let her have a missing poster in their bar, and that the internet cafe also did not have one. If you owned the place and your name was being battered around as being the last place NH was seen and that you let in minors (even though an Aruban on this board stated that the drinking age is 16) or that one of the suspects worked for you, what would you do? It's not an easy predictament. She just tries to push buttons by going to these establishments and asking them to put up a poster. She then gets on tv and says why won't they let me put up a picture of NH? Just like when she said why won't Deepak talk to me? All he has to do is tell the truth when she knows that his lawyer would have told him to keep his mouth shut. This is all so people watching will think...how dare C&C and the Internet Cafe. She says she just goes in thes places politely and they won't let her put up the posters. These two places in particular are stuck in the middle, but she comes out smelling like roses. How would you feel if your boss put up a picture of NH where you worked and you were one of the suspects?

__________________

Now I understand why I couldn't remember the list of specific lies attributed to Beth. In looking at the examples you have mentioned, I have included below an excerpt from a past posting by Dan Riehl at riehl world view. I don't read the comments there (not the same calibre as on this thread!), but I do read what Dan Riehl posts:

"I've seen enough of the MBHS kids, Beth Twitty, etc are lying in my comments area - I may as well address it here on the main page.
That notion is an illusion, most likely based upon a tendency to see a conspiracy sitting atop every grassy knoll. I've spoken to people on all sides of this enough to believe it isn't the case at all. If you take that particular story apart and look at the facts as we know them - it doesn't hold up.

First, the MBHS kids were not some monolithic bunch who moved about in one pack. As with any high school, there are different groups and even layers of groups within the greater whole; and that's certainly true of any group of kids numbering well over one hundred.

Did some MBHS likely meet and know the suspects prior to the last night of the trip? Probably so.

Do others honestly believe they never met them until the last night of the trip? Yep. Because it's probably true.

It has been stated time and time again that Natalee did move in between groups to some extent, as did many of the kids on that trip. No conspiracy ... no great lie, or lying - just the truth from several different perspectives as it is known to those individuals. And that includes Beth Twitty, who likely has heard conflicting accounts from MBHS kids herself, but possibly better understands the dynamics than do many following the case.

Are there things that some MBHS kids might prefer not come out? That wouldn't surprise me, as I know were I a kid on the trip, I'd probably be feeling the same way. That's a far cry from some great conspiracy. It's human nature and, more importantly, adolescent human nature - and by no means limited to teenagers.

A word about television appearances. I've seen so much said about the MBHS kids television appearances, frankly, it's boring. You sit or stand around and wait - forever; then they strap you up, push you on stage and start peppering you with questions and no amount of pre-production preparation helps.

You're unsure of where to look, how to speak, what to say - and the talking head has a script and often an agenda you know nothing about. If you aren't seasoned in the media - any appearance short of a total meltdown is a wonderful success. And you invariably walk away thinking of the 200 things you wished you had said or done, as opposed to what transpired.

All this nonsense about a tremendous secrecy or conspiracy on the part of the MBHS kids and the Twitty/Holloway family is a bunch of overdone thought born of the growing frustration with events in Aruba."
****************
Me again--
Dan Riehl has had a LOT of good commentary on the subject of Natalee Holloway's disappearance, and I include his words here as food for thought. I also remember the original Mountain Brook mother stating at first that many kids saw Natalee get into the car with the boys, but later backing off from that and saying that they were having trouble tracing that observation back to the people who ACTUALLY saw her because most people were repeating what was thought to be true. Not sure about the drinking discussion and where it stands now.

Also, I know that you don't like the idea of the cab/car confusion, and it may be unlikely that she didn't know she was getting into a private car. But I read an article from a man (maybe a journalist) who had just returned from Aruba. I think the link was on riehl world, but I didn't know I would be using it in a post, so I didn't save it! Anyway, he said (in one part of the article) that the cabs were NOT clearly marked and many times you couldn't tell whether you were in a cab until you got inside. I know a poster here has said otherwise, but I haven't been to Aruba myself so I can't say. I know that is the case in Italy, and tourists are advised to stay away from the unmarked "cabs." Once again, just trying to keep it fair and balanced.

Thanks to the posters who have reiterated their dissatisfaction with the way the Twittys have dealt with help given to them along the way. I was clear on how you felt about that. I am just following up on the accusations of lying.

first, every word i stated in my examples were direct quotes from the students...as they stated it on tv, in an email to me, on in posts directly from the horses mouths. the words i stated from beth were direct quotes from her not speculation rumor or insinuation on either side of the story. i do not waste my time repeating rumor unless i state that it is rumor.

second, all taxis are not only clearly marked with a big sign on their roofs but also have a special license plate that denotes them. they are regulated on this by the aruban government.

and finally, you again are one of those who has jumped on the bandwagon while knowing only one side of the story. you state as if it is the truth that someone told you taxis in aruba are not clearly marked and you quote a journalist and website of rumor mongers as if they are facts. at least we clarify the difference between fact and fiction.

i do agree with the quote below and in this case i will take elaine's advice. i have just returned from a great time in aruba where i talked to americans and arubans and many people 'in the know'. i don't have the time to waste any more on one sided people.

ok...as i said last night...this thread is too long...'all things natalee III' has just been started and II is officially closed.