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  #51  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by tico View Post
Elaine ~ What the people of Aruba want to realize, is those of us that know the island and the people of the island, will always come back..it's those that have never been to the island, that they will have to gain their trust.
Tico & Miss Judy
I will never believe that Joran or people of his type represent the good people of Aruba, never! For those who have not had any contact with anyone on Aruba they will have a different take, I assume, hopefully they will look beyond this one person. Moey
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  #52  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by Sandra View Post
Peter R. de Vries has a very good reputation in The Netherlands. And one that he has to uphold. So I don't think he would have reported this if he was not very sure of himself and the things he found out. He has solved crimes in the past where the police drew a blank (simply because he has more time and money available then the police does).
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Originally Posted by JohnJT View Post
Thanks, Sandra.
I was willing to guess the opposite.
Thanks for setting me straight!
John, I must add to this that Peter R. de Vries has a solid reputation where it comes to solving cases that are unsolved or where a verdict is in dispute. He uses methods the police can or may not use. In some circles he is despised for his use of these uncommon methods. There may also be some kind of 'personal vendetta' between Peter R. de Vries and Joran van der Sloot leading to the program that has been aired yesterday. I am not a huge fan of Peter R. de Vries but in this case he has undeniably made a major breakthrough.
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Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by moey View Post
Seashell: Yes, I always believed he 'knew' more than he said, but I was of the opinion for most of the time that NH perhaps ran away and he was instrumental in helping her do that and that was the 'something' that he knew and wasn't talking about. I never in a million years thought that it would be something like this. And I'm not saying that the DeVries tape is 100% correct, I have no idea about that, but the blanket denial before the tape ever came out was suspicious to me. There was a lot of talk around that this tape was made in a casino -- imagine my surprise when I learned that it was made in a car!

I am very very sorry for the Vandersloot family and the Holloway family. I don't always agree with what Beth has said/done, but I sympathize with her as a mother and agree that the what if's would drive me crazy. Even children as young as 3 to 4 have made 911 calls to help their mothers who have been incapacitated, if those little kids know enough to call 911, then a 17 or 18 year old certainly would know to do it. It is a sad, sad case, that's for sure. Moey
Tonight I saw a behavorial scientist comment on the 'Joran tapes'. She stated that most of what Joran says on the tapes seems authentic, up until the part where he starts to talk about the way they made her body disappear. There, she said, she saw a change in his behaviour, less natural.

That would be my guess as well. I don't think his intention was to kill Natalee at all. Two young kids, hormones bouncing up and down in their bodies, both a bit drunk, both may or may not been using drugs, go to a remote beach to make love. Nothing very strange about that. It all went terribly wrong went Natalee started 'shaking' as Joran said. It may well be that he still has made up the part after that about 'getting rid' of her body. I don't know if this Daury was the person who helped Joran. There is also the point of how Joran got home. In the tapes he said that he walked home, some 15 minutes. According to Peter R. de Vries this would take a lot longer. Another strange point is what he had done with his shoes. He now said that he disposed of them along the way. Why? Why dispose of your shoes and walk home bare footed?

The tapes give answers but still a lot of things unanswered as well.
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  #54  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by Coen View Post
Tonight I saw a behavorial scientist comment on the 'Joran tapes'. She stated that most of what Joran says on the tapes seems authentic, up until the part where he starts to talk about the way they made her body disappear. There, she said, she saw a change in his behaviour, less natural.

That would be my guess as well. I don't think his intention was to kill Natalee at all. Two young kids, hormones bouncing up and down in their bodies, both a bit drunk, both may or may not been using drugs, go to a remote beach to make love. Nothing very strange about that. It all went terribly wrong went Natalee started 'shaking' as Joran said. It may well be that he still has made up the part after that about 'getting rid' of her body. I don't know if this Daury was the person who helped Joran. There is also the point of how Joran got home. In the tapes he said that he walked home, some 15 minutes. According to Peter R. de Vries this would take a lot longer. Another strange point is what he had done with his shoes. He now said that he disposed of them along the way. Why? Why dispose of your shoes and walk home bare footed?

The tapes give answers but still a lot of things unanswered as well.
Cohen: I agree. I think the biggest one is "who did he call" if he called anyone. Yes, the shoes have dogged him for a long time. Moey
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  #55  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 06:06 PM
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One Happy Island Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by sherry View Post

also, to answer your question about the last part of my earlier post, sadly, aruba was blamed from the beginning. i won't go into the details today but aruba has suffered a nightmare of its own for over 2 1/2 years. i as a moderator of an aruba board have gotten a taste of it. that taste is very bitter. to be honest, i can't believe the cruelty of my own countrymen to place blame on a country rather than a person. their behavior was sinful. sadly, it still is going on. i have received or read enough emails recently to let me know that it doesn't end here. it is a shame that no one listens to aruba's pain for it too has suffered.
This paragraph says it all, sherry! Being here on the island while all this is going down, I can see, looking into the hearts of our Aruban friends, how devasted they are. I found myself many times apologizing for my countrymen, and the terrible things said about Aruba and the locals.

Recently, I looked at one of my earliest posts when this case began. My feelings and opinion then hasn't changed one bit... I called it as I saw it from the beginning, and I have the same call today as Charlie can attest to.

The good people of Aruba have suffered terribly.... and yet, their kindness and love for Americans never waivered, and that humbles me.
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  #56  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by Elaine S View Post
This paragraph says it all, sherry! Being here on the island while all this is going down, I can see, looking into the hearts of our Aruban friends, how devasted they are. I found myself many times apologizing for my countrymen, and the terrible things said about Aruba and the locals.

Recently, I looked at one of my earliest posts when this case began. My feelings and opinion then hasn't changed one bit... I called it as I saw it from the beginning, and I have the same call today as Charlie can attest to.

The good people of Aruba have suffered terribly.... and yet, their kindness and love for Americans never waivered, and that humbles me.
Yes I can attest to that - can and will. Elaine, to your credit, you have never waivered in your convictions. You kept telling me that Joran knows moe than he has revealed. I don't know how this taped confession will play out in the long run but, as of right now, it sure looks like you were right.

I'm not a big believer in "hunches." I need something more concrete than "gut feelings." Well, I have to give credit where credit is due, Elaine, your hunch and gut feeling appear to have right on the money.

As for the effect all this has had on Aruba, it still makes me mad when I reflect on all the hatred that has been directed at the island and the wonderful people that live on it. Assuming that Joran's confession is legitimate (and I still haven't seen it in its entirety), I think that Aruba and the investigation have been fully vindicated.

Here's something that I have been saying from day one - it is hard to solve a case without a single molecule of physical evidence. That appears to have been the hand that Aruban investigators were dealt. According to Joran's scenario, Natalee's body had been dumped at sea before any of her classmates or trip non-chaperones even knew she was missing. To me, this completely removes "corruption" or "coverup" from the equation. Unfortunately, this case brought out the worst in a lot of people and I learned the hard way that there are some very vocal people out there that are just looking trouble. They had never even heard of Aruba prior to June 2005 but Aruba became their convenient target. I guess it was fun for them to spew the awfulest hatred imaginable, but it was all spewed in ignorance.

Funny thing, as this case has progressed, I have actually had the opportunity to meet Natalee's mother (we live in the same town, after all, and it turns out we have a significant degree of overlap in our circles of friends) and I communicate on a regular basis with Natalee's father and step-mother. I know that none of them codone the evil hatred that has emerged in the name of their daughter.
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  #57  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 06:47 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by Elaine S View Post
This paragraph says it all, sherry! Being here on the island while all this is going down, I can see, looking into the hearts of our Aruban friends, how devasted they are. I found myself many times apologizing for my countrymen, and the terrible things said about Aruba and the locals.

Recently, I looked at one of my earliest posts when this case began. My feelings and opinion then hasn't changed one bit... I called it as I saw it from the beginning, and I have the same call today as Charlie can attest to.

The good people of Aruba have suffered terribly.... and yet, their kindness and love for Americans never waivered, and that humbles me.
I'm still looking for the why in this. Why was this case so blown out of proportion (MHO) that it almost led to a 'visitor strike'. Sadly, disappearances like this happen everywhere, everyday and yet most cases don't even reach the papers or the TV news casts. Why is it that Aruba, the island with the most friendly people indeed, the island where I feel safer then everywhere else where I have been, gets this undeserved treatment?

I understand the feeling of the parents all too well, being a parent myself. This is the worst thing that can happen to a parent. A somewhat similar situation occurred this summer in Portugal where the almost 4 year Madeleine McCann disappeared while her parents where out eating. This case got about the same amount of media attention, at least in Europe, don't know about the US, yet it didn't lead to people staying away from Portugal or blaming the country for it.
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  #58  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by Coen View Post
I'm still looking for the why in this. Why was this case so blown out of proportion (MHO) that it almost led to a 'visitor strike'. Sadly, disappearances like this happen everywhere, everyday and yet most cases don't even reach the papers or the TV news casts. Why is it that Aruba, the island with the most friendly people indeed, the island where I feel safer then everywhere else where I have been, gets this undeserved treatment?

I understand the feeling of the parents all too well, being a parent myself. This is the worst thing that can happen to a parent. A somewhat similar situation occurred this summer in Portugal where the almost 4 year Madeleine McCann disappeared while her parents where out eating. This case got about the same amount of media attention, at least in Europe, don't know about the US, yet it didn't lead to people staying away from Portugal or blaming the country for it.
You raise a really good question. I have my opinions on the subject which are, of course, nothing more than opinions.

To me, it was the perfect storm in an otherwise slow summer for news in the U.S. All the ingredients were there: i.e., a beautiful young woman disappears without a trace while on vacation in paradise. Reads like the start of a mystery novel. So naturally there was a lot of interest at first.

In my opinion, her mother played a large role in the publicity that this case received. I believe that Beth Twitty/Holloway was convinced that the Aruban authorities would close the investigation and try to sweep the entire affair under the rug if they could (as if that were actually possible) so she made it her mission to keep the case in the news back stateside. Mainstream U.S. media sources lost interest in the story as it dragged on without resolution leaving only the cable TV tabloid type talk shows (e.g. Greta van Susteren and Nancy Grace) to provide her with the nightly coverage that she thought necessary. These shows, by their very nature, thrive on scandal and convtroversy so Ms. Twitty/Holloway gave them what they wanted to keep them interested.

Add in the fact that it was an election year on Aruba and then add Jossy Mansur to the equation. Mr. Mansur is a sworn enemy of the incumbant administration (the MEP party and Prime Minister Nelson Oduber) and this case became his platform to try to portray the Oduber administration as corrupt and/or incompetent. Of course, this played right into the xenophobic sentiments that prevail amongst the viewers of those tabloid shows.

It all fed upon itself and became self-sustaining.
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  #59  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

thank you coen. the media latched on to this for some reason and the family was the first to mention a boycott (sorry charlie but they created it even if they no longer want it happening). as a parent i feel as you do that this is the worst nightmare for any parent as it is our greatest fear.

and what a shame that our media had nothing better to do than torment the kindest people i know of. maybe they should come to baltimore where a teen killed his parents and 2 syblings the other night about 10 miles from my house. that needs attention too doesn't it. time to boycott maryland. obviously i am being sarcastic but you get the point.

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I'm still looking for the why in this. Why was this case so blown out of proportion (MHO) that it almost led to a 'visitor strike'. Sadly, disappearances like this happen everywhere, everyday and yet most cases don't even reach the papers or the TV news casts. Why is it that Aruba, the island with the most friendly people indeed, the island where I feel safer then everywhere else where I have been, gets this undeserved treatment?

I understand the feeling of the parents all too well, being a parent myself. This is the worst thing that can happen to a parent. A somewhat similar situation occurred this summer in Portugal where the almost 4 year Madeleine McCann disappeared while her parents where out eating. This case got about the same amount of media attention, at least in Europe, don't know about the US, yet it didn't lead to people staying away from Portugal or blaming the country for it.
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  #60  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by sherry View Post
thank you coen. the media latched on to this for some reason and the family was the first to mention a boycott (sorry charlie but they created it even if they no longer want it happening). as a parent i feel as you do that this is the worst nightmare for any parent as it is our greatest fear.

and what a shame that our media had nothing better to do than torment the kindest people i know of. maybe they should come to baltimore where a teen killed his parents and 2 syblings the other night about 10 miles from my house. that needs attention too doesn't it. time to boycott maryland. obviously i am being sarcastic but you get the point.
Oh yes - the boycott. Needless to say, I have some pretty strong opinions on that subject as well.

I am in possession of a letter, addressed to me, over Governor Bob Riley's signature, in which he explains as best he could the official justification for the boycott. Short version, he felt that the investigators on Aruba were not taking the case seriously enough and the boycott was necessary to "get their attention." I have also read Beth Holloway's book (Loving Natalee) and she has an entire chapter devoted to the boycott. She says virtually the exact same thing to justify her support for it.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think it is safe to say that the reasons given to justify the boycott were invalid ab initio. Aruban authorities could not have possibly given the case of Natalee Holloway more priority. In the words of Rep. Spencer Bachus, the amount of resources that the Aruban investigators invested in the case was "astounding."

I have to say, also with the benefit of hindsight, that supporting the boycott was a huge mistake by the family of Natalee Holloway. It did nothing to help bring the case closer to resolution and, in the end, wound up looking like a vindictive attempt to punish innocent people for no good reason other than the fact that they lived on Aruba. I might add, these innocent people were very, very good to the family of Natalee Holloway when they needed it the most.

Dave and Robin Holloway rescinded their support for the boycott last Fall; hopefully Beth will do the same.
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  #61  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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I, like everyone, am sickened by this young man and his callousness and disregard for human life. Why would he dump a body he was not sure was dead instead of calling for help? As stated, he was "befriended" by a man who was supplying him with drugs, and Joran was no doubt selling them as well as using them. Do you think it is possible that he slipped her some type of drug, to make it easier to take advantage of her, that had a bad reaction due to an excessive amount of alcohol in her system?
I was thinking the same thing when I read your post. That he gave her some type of drug. Maybe she knowingly took it; maybe not. But when she started convulsing, does he call emergency on his cell phone to help her - NO. All he cared for was himself. When asked if he tried to do anything for her, he said he shook the b***ch. Arrogant sob. As for him being only 17 at the time and that he probably panicked, that's no excuse. He lived on his own in a cottage on his parents property. I'm curious to know at what age that his parents allowed him to have this privilage. I know I would never let my daughter at 17 (or younger) or a son if I had a son to live on his/her own at that age. He was allowed to come and go as he wished wished with no parental supervision to gamble and drink. I personally never thought the two brothers had anything to do with this except to drive them to the beach. I have a few times talked to the brother that works at the Internet Cafe at the Seaport. He has always been very nice and helpful.
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Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

While I respect everyone's opinion here, and believe me I do, I would have tried to keep this story alive at Ms. Holloway's Mother did....and I am not going to say I wouldn't have done the same thing either that she did. I don't really know how desperate I might have been if that had been MY child missing in a foreign country.

I don't have the same personality as her Mother has and that's quite obvious to those that know me....but.....my child is my child and I will not put down any parent's attempt at finding their child.

Until I walk in their shoes....................................................
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  #63  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

We are getting ready to re visit Aruba to celebrate a return honeymoon, this time with our kids..teenagers. Thank you for sharing the updates on Natalie Holloway, it is appreciated to receive the real information coming from Holland and also Aruba..Thank You! To be honest, we were reluctant to return and appreciate your reassuring us that the island is still the wonderful place we spent our honeymoon...Two questions, Did someone say that CBS will be doing the case tonight ? Also, do you know if Carlos and Charlies is still operating and if so, are they being better monitored for limiting drinking to an appropriate amount (meaning that people are not so drunk that they cannot drive? ) We are going to be really keeping our kids on a very strict schedule and curfew. It was heart wretching to see the effect this sad story had on the friendly, kind Aruban people, but as a mother, I cannot imagine that Beth Twitty will ever mend her heart. Beleive me, if it were my daughter, I would not allow anyone to let the case go cold. Remember they were holding the two hotel guards in the beginning.....She would have gone to the ends of the earth to find out what happened...it is so sad that such a situation happened, as Sherry mentioned, ten miles from her house murders occurred and I would hate to see the statistics of how many teens go missing after a night out here in the USA. What i learned from this sad story is to be even more aware of what my kids are doing and with whom. Thanks for the info. Mary
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Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Mary...the story will be aired on ABC at 9:30. It's a 20/20 special.
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  #65  
Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Mary, tried to edit my last post but something went awry...but anyway, Carlos and Charlies is closed at the moment and will be reopening as a Senor Frog's. I don't know the timeline for that though. Hope you and your family have a great time on the island paradise that we call Aruba.
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Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

mary, welcome and it is so good that you decided to go back to aruba. yes, be vigilant with your children as you would be at home. being on vacation gives us a relaxed feeling and we let down our guard.

as far as i know, carlos and charlies is still open. i have no clue if they restrict drinking. i would doubt it. so again, if your teens are going out, give them warnings and threats, lol.

20/20 will have a 90 minute show tonight. i hope you and others will review it here since i probably wil not have time to watch it.

what is really scary now in my area of the world are the phone calls from local police. they are recorded calls giving descriptions of missing adults and children. i get one every week or two and rarely get to find out what happened to them. in fact it is rarely even mentioned in our newspaper. how sad is that? what is this world coming to when children go missing and it doesn't even make a newspaper?

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We are getting ready to re visit Aruba to celebrate a return honeymoon, this time with our kids..teenagers. Thank you for sharing the updates on Natalie Holloway, it is appreciated to receive the real information coming from Holland and also Aruba..Thank You! To be honest, we were reluctant to return and appreciate your reassuring us that the island is still the wonderful place we spent our honeymoon...Two questions, Did someone say that CBS will be doing the case tonight ? Also, do you know if Carlos and Charlies is still operating and if so, are they being better monitored for limiting drinking to an appropriate amount (meaning that people are not so drunk that they cannot drive? ) We are going to be really keeping our kids on a very strict schedule and curfew. It was heart wretching to see the effect this sad story had on the friendly, kind Aruban people, but as a mother, I cannot imagine that Beth Twitty will ever mend her heart. Beleive me, if it were my daughter, I would not allow anyone to let the case go cold. Remember they were holding the two hotel guards in the beginning.....She would have gone to the ends of the earth to find out what happened...it is so sad that such a situation happened, as Sherry mentioned, ten miles from her house murders occurred and I would hate to see the statistics of how many teens go missing after a night out here in the USA. What i learned from this sad story is to be even more aware of what my kids are doing and with whom. Thanks for the info. Mary
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Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

I have always been in the camp trying to hold back on accusations and wait for the story to come out, and have even gone as far as practically defending Joran when others would prefer to see him lynched. It's currently very hard to stay in that camp. Watching 20/20 right now...

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what is this world coming to when children go missing and it doesn't even make a newspaper?
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Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Kev, I'm here watching it now too. I don't think he was bragging when he told van der Eem that he knew where her body was put to rest. To me, it comes off as him telling the story of what really happened. Gee, I think for once he's telling the truth. What a miracle. Please pick up on the sarcasm. ;-)
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Old Monday, February 4th, 2008, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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I have always been in the camp trying to hold back on accusations and wait for the story to come out, and have even gone as far as practically defending Joran when others would prefer to see him lynched. It's currently very hard to stay in that camp. Watching 20/20 right now...

There is no good answer.
"Hard to stay in that camp." I'd call that the understatement of the evening.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 12:55 AM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case


I just saw the ABC 20/20 tape and it seems to put more questions out there. And some parts you can tell when Joran is telling a real story and some parts he seems to be not sure of. The truth parts are that he did meet up with them at C&C and yes sherry the place is closed now It will be taken over by Senor Frogs.

There were stories from people that stayed at the HI that remembered the kids from the school being drunk and rowdy so he was telling the truth that she was already drunk they were all drinking. Any one who's been to C&C knows that they get ladies there to dance up on the bars and he said she wanted for him to take a jello shot off her stomach so she would get a free shot.

He did not have to give her any drug. He said she wanted a shot so he got her 151 proof any drinker knows like he said that's 75%. so the combo of that and what she already had put her in a bad spot.

Now taking her to the beach to make out when he said she started shaking she sounds like she went into shock and him already having a few drinks himself he panicked could not think straight and when she stopped moving called this person Dury to help him.

Now this is where this gets confusing and I am not sure about his story. He says the guy comes sees What has happened and then this dury picks up the body takes it to a boat moored on Palm Beach he does not say he took her by car and took her to the other side but a boat close by puts her in the boat. and then that person dumps her into the sea.

I have trouble with this part because I would think that this dury would have help carrying the body to the boat unless he did it by himself. and that Joran said he did not think that he went out more that 2 kilometers out to sea to dispose of the body. Plus he said that Dury did not use any weights to weight the body down plus he said he was not on the boat.

How did Joran know this unless he was on the boat. That puzzles me.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 01:33 AM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Watched the 20/20 show tonight. Very interesting at the least. I will hold
off any theories until more information comes out. I am glad that at this
point Beth is able to get some closure as a parent. Here is something that
some of you may find intersting though;

Critical Signs for Alcohol Poisoning
  • Mental confusion, stupor, coma, or person cannot be roused.
  • Vomiting.
  • Seizures.
  • Slow breathing (fewer than eight breaths per minute).
  • Irregular breathing (10 seconds or more between breaths).
  • Hypothermia (low body temperature), bluish skin color, paleness.
Blood Alcohol Content (BAC) Calculator
Estimated BAC Levels Based on Consumption1. NUMBER OF DRINKS:
8

2. WHAT ARE YOU DRINKING?
Reduced alc. Beer 12ozLight Beer 12ozLight Canadian Beer - 12oz 2.41%abvCanadian Beer - 341ml 5%abvCanadian Beer - 500ml 5%abvCanadian Beer - 500ml 10%abvImported Beer 12ozBeer 12ozMalt Liquor 12ozCommon Table Wine 5ozChampagne 5ozBloody MaryGin and TonicHighballIrish CoffeeOn the RocksPina ColadaScrew DriverTom CollinsWhiskey SourMargaritaAirline MiniatureGimletOld FashionedMint JulepBlack RussianDry MartiniFortified/Dessert Wine 5ozManhattanRob RoyDouble On the RocksFrozen DaiquiriHarry Buffalo

3. HOW MUCH DO YOU WEIGH?:
100

4. HOW MANY HOURS HAVE YOU BEEN DRINKING?
4 hours

RESULT:
—YOUR BLOOD ALCOHOL CONTENT...
BAC %.28 (THEORETICAL)
Analysis:
*All states have passed a .08 per se law. The final one took effect in August of 2005. (Updated: Sept. 3rd, 2005)

That would be three times the legal limit. 8 drinks in 4 hours with friends
partying HARD would not be unheard of. There is a problem in our young
adults that addresses the subject of binge drinking. What's even more
interesting, after you stop drinking, your BAC level continues to rise.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 06:22 AM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Hi everyone,

I have been reading your posts and you all come up with very good remarks and questions. There are some things we should take into consideraton:

1)Joran says he's lying (again)
2)Daury Rodriguez wasn't in Aruba during that period and couldn't have disposed of the body as Joran says.
3)According to call records, no calls were made at the Marriot payphone around that time.

Now, I saw this program too. It was shocking to see how little emotion he shows. I believe his account to be a mixture of truth and lies. And maybe the drug use had something to do with it?

In The Netherlands there's a lot of commotion about this case. People formed groups and went looking for Joran. Some por guy named Johan van der Sloot was mistaken for Joran and a huge group of people stood outside his house and banged on the doors and windows. A very scary experience for him I'm sure.

This is a very complex case, I just hope they can finally find some hard evidence they can use.

As an Aruban I have to say I'm so glad that Carlos & Charlies is closed. We don't need that kind of 'entertainment' on the island. It has a very bad reputation amongst Arubans as well.

Regards,
Luli
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 07:31 AM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Carlos and Charlies is closed.

Senor Frogs is going to open sometime this month. (they are owned by the same company)
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 10:11 AM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

C&C closed on Jan. 5th. Senor Frog is located next door and upstairs. http://www.srfrogsaruba.com/
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 11:31 AM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

I think I am more confused now that the show has aired. There are so many discrepancies in his story as already stated, i.e.; no record of a call, the person named as an accomplise was not in Aruba and does not have a boat, etc. He is a self-proclaimed liar. How can we believe anything he says? I think the truth is half there. We may never know the whole truth. I think he had to do something to her that would implicate him in an equally serious crime if her body was found.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 11:54 AM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by charlierat View Post
Yes I can attest to that - can and will. Elaine, to your credit, you have never waivered in your convictions. You kept telling me that Joran knows moe than he has revealed. I don't know how this taped confession will play out in the long run but, as of right now, it sure looks like you were right.

I'm not a big believer in "hunches." I need something more concrete than "gut feelings." Well, I have to give credit where credit is due, Elaine, your hunch and gut feeling appear to have right on the money.

As for the effect all this has had on Aruba, it still makes me mad when I reflect on all the hatred that has been directed at the island and the wonderful people that live on it. Assuming that Joran's confession is legitimate (and I still haven't seen it in its entirety), I think that Aruba and the investigation have been fully vindicated.

Here's something that I have been saying from day one - it is hard to solve a case without a single molecule of physical evidence. That appears to have been the hand that Aruban investigators were dealt. According to Joran's scenario, Natalee's body had been dumped at sea before any of her classmates or trip non-chaperones even knew she was missing. To me, this completely removes "corruption" or "coverup" from the equation. Unfortunately, this case brought out the worst in a lot of people and I learned the hard way that there are some very vocal people out there that are just looking trouble. They had never even heard of Aruba prior to June 2005 but Aruba became their convenient target. I guess it was fun for them to spew the awfulest hatred imaginable, but it was all spewed in ignorance.

Funny thing, as this case has progressed, I have actually had the opportunity to meet Natalee's mother (we live in the same town, after all, and it turns out we have a significant degree of overlap in our circles of friends) and I communicate on a regular basis with Natalee's father and step-mother. I know that none of them codone the evil hatred that has emerged in the name of their daughter.

Charlie: Thank you for sharing that last paragraph. I really thought I was nuts for feeling sorry for feeling any compassion for Beth and the family. I don't always agree with her, but I do understand how she feels as a mother. I would be going out of my mind if something similar happened to my daughter or granddaughter, I just don't know if I could live with the 'not knowing.' At least now she has some semblance of truth, but I don't think it is the whole story.

I watched the 20/20 program last night and was physically sick at the attitude of Joran towards his family, the justice system, the judge, the interrogators, and especially of NH. I felt like is just didn't matter if she was still alive, or dead, or whatever -- lets just get rid of her. So callous with either the remains of a human being or a human being still clinging to life and needing help. At a minimum calling 911 or whatever the number is on Aruba would have been the stand-up thing to do.

I feel so sorry for Anita and his family I can hardly even think about it. As a mother she has to be devastated. I've sent my thoughts and prayers through another medium, if anyone here has personal contact with her, please add my thoughts and prayers for her strength through this extremely hard time.

Thanks again Charlie. Moey
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luli View Post
Hi everyone,

I have been reading your posts and you all come up with very good remarks and questions. There are some things we should take into consideraton:

1)Joran says he's lying (again)
2)Daury Rodriguez wasn't in Aruba during that period and couldn't have disposed of the body as Joran says.
3)According to call records, no calls were made at the Marriot payphone around that time.

Now, I saw this program too. It was shocking to see how little emotion he shows. I believe his account to be a mixture of truth and lies. And maybe the drug use had something to do with it?

In The Netherlands there's a lot of commotion about this case. People formed groups and went looking for Joran. Some por guy named Johan van der Sloot was mistaken for Joran and a huge group of people stood outside his house and banged on the doors and windows. A very scary experience for him I'm sure.

This is a very complex case, I just hope they can finally find some hard evidence they can use.

As an Aruban I have to say I'm so glad that Carlos & Charlies is closed. We don't need that kind of 'entertainment' on the island. It has a very bad reputation amongst Arubans as well.

Regards,
Luli
Luli: Yes, I think it is probably a good idea C&C is closed, I had no idea it had closed.

I think as you do too that what was said on the tape(s) is probably a mix of lies and truth. I would assume that all phone records are being checked, not just the ones by the hotel and also cell records and land lines too with cross references to see what might connect where. Picky work, but in the long run it pays off.

I would like to know the name of the 'other person' Joran said that "i wll take the name to my grave," is.

It is a shame and I absolutely am sick for the two families and what this has done to such a beautiful country. I've not been there, but have seen many many photos and have corresponded with people who live there and they are more than gracious. Take care. Moey
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Hi moey,

Yes, C&C is closed and I hope that Señor Frogs won't use the same type of entertainment when it opens. The C&C only focused on making money by encouraging binge drinking and outrageous behaviour on stage with ridiculous (to say the least)shows and competitions. It is best gone. If I am not mistaken it is a large chain of restaurant/bars situated in different countries and they all use the same 'recipe' as I mentioned before.

Joran definitely did a huge damage to his already bad reputation with the so called confession. I know many people believe or want to believe this is enough to convict him, but I don't think this is possible. He has lied over and over again. Why should we now accept this version of what happened that night esp. since it appears that a lot of what he said just isn't correct. The person you are refering to as the 'other person' that Joran would take his name to the grave is Daury Rodriguez. He said he would never mention his name, but afterwards did it anyway. This is apparently also a lie because Daury R. came forward immediately and denied everything and can prove his whereabouts during that period. Joran must be covering up for someone else then?
It is my opinion that we have not made any progress with this confession, it leaves everyone with even more unanswered questions (and unfortunately one more blow for NH's family).

It is truly a shame to see my country taking the heat for what some people did, but Aruba will get through this. At the moment it is more important for the two families to know what exactly happened that night and to try to find closure and move on with their lives.

Thank you for your kind words and for being able to see beyond this tragic incident.

Regards,
Luli
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 01:41 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by Luli View Post
Hi moey,

Yes, C&C is closed and I hope that Señor Frogs won't use the same type of entertainment when it opens. The C&C only focused on making money by encouraging binge drinking and outrageous behaviour on stage with ridiculous (to say the least)shows and competitions. It is best gone. If I am not mistaken it is a large chain of restaurant/bars situated in different countries and they all use the same 'recipe' as I mentioned before.

Joran definitely did a huge damage to his already bad reputation with the so called confession. I know many people believe or want to believe this is enough to convict him, but I don't think this is possible. He has lied over and over again. Why should we now accept this version of what happened that night esp. since it appears that a lot of what he said just isn't correct. The person you are refering to as the 'other person' that Joran would take his name to the grave is Daury Rodriguez. He said he would never mention his name, but afterwards did it anyway. This is apparently also a lie because Daury R. came forward immediately and denied everything and can prove his whereabouts during that period. Joran must be covering up for someone else then?
It is my opinion that we have not made any progress with this confession, it leaves everyone with even more unanswered questions (and unfortunately one more blow for NH's family).

It is truly a shame to see my country taking the heat for what some people did, but Aruba will get through this. At the moment it is more important for the two families to know what exactly happened that night and to try to find closure and move on with their lives.

Thank you for your kind words and for being able to see beyond this tragic incident.

Regards,
Luli
Luli: Yes, they certainly need closure. I'm very sorry for this horrible trouble brought on Aruba. However, perhaps with this and the closing of C&C maybe other such establishments will also close as they are under more scrutinty now.

It will take a long time for the families of course. No matter what is found out about what Joran said on the tape(s) in the eyes of the world he will always be a 'suspect,' even though the legal system may declare that he is no longer a 'suspect.' Public perception is very very difficult to change. I feel for him, however, in my humble opinion, he should have spoken the truth a long long time ago. That goes for the other side too, it just doesn't pay to play games or withhold information, never works in the long run.

Best wishes, Moey
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 01:45 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

I stand by what I said. He was 17, a child of privilege. That kind of kid wants out of trouble fast. Did he know to call 911? Of course he did! He didn't want to. How many teens lie through their teeth to get out of trouble?

I was wondering though - is this tape considered "entrapment"? Will it stand up without physical evidence?
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

corrine, i heard on the local news today that the aruban courts have determined that the tape WILL be admissible in court. i guess that they can use it along with other evidence as proof.

Quote:
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I stand by what I said. He was 17, a child of privilege. That kind of kid wants out of trouble fast. Did he know to call 911? Of course he did! He didn't want to. How many teens lie through their teeth to get out of trouble?

I was wondering though - is this tape considered "entrapment"? Will it stand up without physical evidence?
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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corrine, i heard on the local news today that the aruban courts have determined that the tape WILL be admissible in court. i guess that they can use it along with other evidence as proof.

Glad to hear that!
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

It's been a long time since I've been here. I'm glad some of you are still enjoying your connections. I thought the interview might be discussed here.

In some ways I think Joran and OJ Simpson are alike--both very self-consumed and neither seeming to show any sympathy for the women involved in their cases or any remorse for their actions at all--even if they didn't commit the acts expressly themselves (still "sort of" open as to who did what).

I'm wondering why Joran was so worried about Natalie's body ever being found and feeling "safe" if it wasn't. Would there be evidence of more than a drug/alcohol event that caused her death, perhaps an act of Joran's? It's almost certain that we will never know.

There were and still are contradictions in what he says.
He leaves a girl to die or to be dumped into an ocean instead of buried and still has the audacity to throw wine in people's faces and behave like a lout. He's OJ the second in my book. Instead of trying to live a productive and meaningful life in thanksgiving for getting away with their past behaviors, they both continue to be self-centered and ready to commit more crimes.

Last edited by tdzmm; Tuesday, February 5th, 2008 at 03:12 PM. Reason: left the words "getting away with" out--changed meaning of sentence
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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coen, if that is accurate and they can prove he wasn't there, that is the most interesting information to come out of the case. does it show that joran was telling a stupid tale because he is too into his ego and wanted to brag or that he is a sociopath that doesn't care what he says or does to anyone?
Or does it show/mean that Joran's father helped him and even Joran (as yet) hasn't blamed anything on his father. In the tape, he even says that it wasn't anyone in his family or anything like that--in "Joran truth", that might mean that it WAS someone from his family who helped him. And I still can't figure out how the Kalpoe brothers fit into this now. I don't think Joran even mentioned them in the description of "the night". At least I don't recall that--there was a lot to hear and watch and absorb though.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

he mentioned only that they dropped him and natalee off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdzmm View Post
Or does it show/mean that Joran's father helped him and even Joran (as yet) hasn't blamed anything on his father. In the tape, he even says that it wasn't anyone in his family or anything like that--in "Joran truth", that might mean that it WAS someone from his family who helped him. And I still can't figure out how the Kalpoe brothers fit into this now. I don't think Joran even mentioned them in the description of "the night". At least I don't recall that--there was a lot to hear and watch and absorb though.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Corrine......it's only considered entrapment if law enforcement is invovled....as this was 2 private citizens all tapes can be used in a court of law, even Aruba courts....thank God for that !!!

Also TDZMM Joran and OJ are both sociopaths, nuff said ! LOL

And I feel bad for the Kalpoes cause they seem to have truly been in the wrong place at the wrong time by agreeing to drive Natalee and Joran to the lighthouse and then dropping them off at the beach......their reputations have been smeared all over Aruba for 2.8 years all for an innocent car ride they gave to Natalee and Joran ......I saw Deepak at the Cybercafe where he works back in April and it was so sad to see him sitting there barely able to look up at the tourists as they walked in all day and night, imagine that feeling, especially when you knew you had NOTHING to do with Natalees disappearance.....he was a very lonely looking sole that week I frequented the cafe........

joran's attitude is so typical of a slf absorbed sociopath, he makes me sick !
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Corrine......it's only considered entrapment if law enforcement is invovled....as this was 2 private citizens all tapes can be used in a court of law, even Aruba courts....thank God for that !!!

Also TDZMM Joran and OJ are both sociopaths, nuff said ! LOL

And I feel bad for the Kalpoes cause they seem to have truly been in the wrong place at the wrong time by agreeing to drive Natalee and Joran to the lighthouse and then dropping them off at the beach......their reputations have been smeared all over Aruba for 2.8 years all for an innocent car ride they gave to Natalee and Joran ......I saw Deepak at the Cybercafe where he works back in April and it was so sad to see him sitting there barely able to look up at the tourists as they walked in all day and night, imagine that feeling, especially when you knew you had NOTHING to do with Natalees disappearance.....he was a very lonely looking sole that week I frequented the cafe........

joran's attitude is so typical of a slf absorbed sociopath, he makes me sick !
It now indeed looks like the tapes can be used as evidence. On the other hand, what I keep hearing on and on in Dutch media as well is that these tapes alone will not lead to a conviction. Joran can easily say that all he said on the tapes were lies, just told to make an impression. For a conviction, a second witness is needed or the recovered body of Natalee. Sad as it is, Joran might just get away with this. Again.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

As others have already pointed out, the tape itself will be admissible in Court. However, as I said earlier on this thread, it is axiomatic that confessions must be corroborated with some other kind of empirical evidence. In this case, it's going to be tough. The guy he named as his accomplice has an ironclad alibi (he was not even on the island when all this happened), the payphone at the Marriott was checked out long ago and it was determined from phone records that no calls had been made from it on the night in question and, the biggie, still no body.

As easy as it is to despise Joran at this point, the fact remains that only thing he confessed to was the illegal disposal of a body. I mean, it's not illegal to be in the presence of someone who has a seizure and dies. His panic and urgency to get rid of the body raises a big question in my mind about the veracity of his "seizure" story.

Although his latest version of events is riddled with holes, I am now pretty well convinced that he was present when Natalee met her demise and that he was responsible for the disposal of her body. That makes him also responsible for 2 3/4 years of pure Hell for Natalee's family, his own family, the Kalpoe family, and everyone who lives on and and/or loves Aruba.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 05:23 PM
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One Happy Island Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

The last time I was on Aruba, Jordan had some support from locals who couldn't believe this could happen on their island.

I must tell you that the Arubans I've talked to over the last several days, the same ones who once said it couldn't happen here, are totally convinced it did, and Joran was responsible. There is no love here for him, and now the locals are angry that he brought such misery to this wonderful place.

This island will no longer be a haven to or for Joran...
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by Elaine S View Post
The last time I was on Aruba, Jordan had some support from locals who couldn't believe this could happen on their island.

I must tell you that the Arubans I've talked to over the last several days, the same ones who once said it couldn't happen here, are totally convinced it did, and Joran was responsible. There is no love here for him, and now the locals are angry that he brought such misery to this wonderful place.

This island will no longer be a haven to or for Joran...
Are you saying that he made his own bed and now he can sleep in it?
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

i do think that is what elaine means.

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Are you saying that he made his own bed and now he can sleep in it?
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

I also watched the Natalee Holloway tape and I have mixed feelings on the truthfulness of JVS. I belives SOME of what he said is true but i also have doubts about how really truthful he was. Something tells me he was being very cautious in what he was admitting to,for instance, I believe the story of how they met, C&c rendevous etc, is true but what I question is if what he said was true regarding how she died? I wonder if he was suspicious of the questions being asked, and answered in a way that was not making him responible for her death- and that his friend threw her body into the ocean, how then did he know no weights were used to weigh her body down if he was not on the boat-- then why was nothing found,what I mean is-all the experts said early on the invesigation,if her body was thrown into the sea, why hasn't any body parts, clothing etc. been found surfacing in the ocean? Unless my memory is faulty, the invesigerts said sooner or later SOMETHING would have surfaced-a shoe,bone,something. Also am I incorrect remembering that they could not get a search warrent for the VS home to search the well in their yard--just questions IMOP.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Originally Posted by sherry View Post
i do think that is what elaine means.
Yep. That's what it looked like to me, too. I agree with Elaine.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Although his latest version of events is riddled with holes, I am now pretty well convinced that he was present when Natalee met her demise and that he was responsible for the disposal of her body. That makes him also responsible for 2 3/4 years of pure Hell for Natalee's family, his own family, the Kalpoe family, and everyone who lives on and and/or loves Aruba.
Well said, Charlie!

Also - Like OJ, Joran was acting like HE was the victim at one point. I think he said "why does this happen to ME?". It makes you wonder how he was brought up. His mom seems decent enough.

Jaydee had brought up a good point about nothing ever surfacing.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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Well said, Charlie!

Also - Like OJ, Joran was acting like HE was the victim at one point. I think he said "why does this happen to ME?". It makes you wonder how he was brought up. His mom seems decent enough.

Jaydee had brought up a good point about nothing ever surfacing.
Yeah, that "why me" attitude did not go un-noticed.

I agree about the good points Jaydee made as well. Another real good point was, how would Joran know the body was not weighted down if he wasn't on the boat?
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Just one more thought-IMOP- I believe this poor girl was buried INTACT-clothing etc- where I have no idea, but I believe that is why nothing has been found tracing her-I also believe Joran is responsible but feel he had alot of help disposing of her body and I don't buy the throwing her overboard for reasons I already expressed-My one haunting question is --did his first call was to his lawyer dad for advice ??? Something to ponder I think.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

I am completely on board with the comparison to OJ. He'll most likely face little if any jail time, for a crime that now it seems he almost certainly played a great role in. If he's 'only' charged with being an accessory to abandoning a person in need or however they word the crime, he'll face a few months at most and then be free again to do what he does best: troll.

It's hard to tell where the truth ended in his story. I mean I've been there, where you have something you can't tell ANYONE, so you tip toe around the most desperate parts (names, specific details) to the point that it's hard to tell if you're lying or being coy or making it up etc. I think we watched him tell the truth - at least as he remembers it.

Consider me out of his corner. I still hesitate to speculate on that which remains unknown, personally I think that speculating is very dangerous and is like a lighter to gas. But...that was a hard 90 minutes to watch.

Lastly, if it's any indication of how this has affected my feelings toward Aruba, I spent a good portion of today negotiating on the purchase of a timeshare. In Aruba. Those of us that have been there know why this case has such a spotlight on it - because it is so freakishly rare. Things like this happen far more often on most every island (and in every US city) out there. Aruba needs to start healing. We all do.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 06:53 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

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I am completely on board with the comparison to OJ. He'll most likely face little if any jail time, for a crime that now it seems he almost certainly played a great role in. If he's 'only' charged with being an accessory to abandoning a person in need or however they word the crime, he'll face a few months at most and then be free again to do what he does best: troll.

It's hard to tell where the truth ended in his story. I mean I've been there, where you have something you can't tell ANYONE, so you tip toe around the most desperate parts (names, specific details) to the point that it's hard to tell if you're lying or being coy or making it up etc. I think we watched him tell the truth - at least as he remembers it.

Consider me out of his corner. I still hesitate to speculate on that which remains unknown, personally I think that speculating is very dangerous and is like a lighter to gas. But...that was a hard 90 minutes to watch.

Lastly, if it's any indication of how this has affected my feelings toward Aruba, I spent a good portion of today negotiating on the purchase of a timeshare. In Aruba. Those of us that have been there know why this case has such a spotlight on it - because it is so freakishly rare. Things like this happen far more often on most every island (and in every US city) out there. Aruba needs to start healing. We all do.
So true and so well put.

Congratulations on the purchase.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 07:04 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Thanks Charlie. Haven't pulled the trigger yet, but almost certainly will.

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Originally Posted by charlierat View Post
So true and so well put.

Congratulations on the purchase.
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Old Tuesday, February 5th, 2008, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Peter R. de Vries broadcast about Natalee Holloway case

Watched the show last night and agree it was hard to watch. Can't imagine what Beth felt. That said....as I always believed she was put in the water, it never entered my mind that she may have still been alive. I just can't stop thinking about that point. To think she may have been able to be saved and no one tried, just sickens me. I truly hope that was not the case. I hope this is a break that will eventually end this nightmare that has devastated so many. That remains to be seen...but we'll all be watching and waiting and hoping
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